Why, hello there. I am so happy to meet you!
Allow me to introduce myself. I am the new Worth1000. Is this your first time meeting the new me? We should get reacquainted then. So many things are different about me now. Come and learn more :).
- Topics & Arenas
- # All
- # Effects
- # Illustration
- # Multimedia
- # Photography
- # Writing
- # Community
- bots Strips
- crit Critics
- comm General
- aww Sugar
- tech Tech
- jail Dungeon
- hello Welcome
- # Corporate
- Recently visited
- comm General
- # All
Hi guys - would anyone be able to help me translating a 1 page jpg from German to English please? I would have tried babelfish or something similar, but I can't even read the text and OCR gives me incomprehensible nonsense. It is written in calligraphy in uhmmmmmm, I'd presume OLD German :D Dates back to 1711.
AprilNine said
both
Perhaps 'all' would be a better way to describe 'old' German, as it was not very standardised ;-)
I am no expert in the language, but I know that Leibniz wrote in Latin because the only 'standard' german was such a limited subset that he could not express his ideas using it.
I'm here. :)
Getting to it right now. Stay tuned. Gah. I wish I remembered all my ROman numbers.
What do you need it for? (And how accurate do you want it to be? I mean, I won't make mistakes, but do you prefer word-to-word or more the good-sounding translation?)
My husband came home and required my attention. ;)
I'll finish translating tonight, ok? :)
LadyMin said
Gah. I wish I remembered all my ROman numbers.
I=1, V=5, X=10, L=50, C=100, M=1000
That more than covers the page in question.
Thanx LadyMin! My sister is doing our genealogy and the German side (for obvious reasons) is proving to be the hardest. Since she's wised up and started using German search terms in stead of English things are progressing much better. (We were stuck because the Grobler ancestor had changed his bloody name! :D )
Edit: I don't actually know how accurate it should be, since I have NO idea what it says :D
Well roughly translated it says something like "The Groblers are a terrible family whose ancestors are condemmed to cause great havoc to all they encounter...." :D
OK, seriously it looks more like legislation or minutes from a legislative body to me. Pity LadyMin had to go, I'm curious now I have tried understanding it myself....she can't keep us in suspense like this :D
LadyMin, I hope you can also illuminate us as to the way it is written, I find it curious the way it just flicks indifferently back and forward into Latin, even the month in the date in the titles, one gives December in german and the other in latin, like it was indifferent!
ercolano said
Well roughly translated it says something like "The Groblers are a terrible family whose ancestors are condemned to cause great havoc to all they encounter...." :D
I would NOT be surprised - from things I've heard lately from my sisters they looked like a bunch of trouble makers :D
Yes, I can illuminate you, Ercolano. :D
Actually, I studied German AND history (and English), which makes for a good combination to do this. Give me some time to finish first, ok.
Btw, K, while translating I found out that in this case, the best way to do it IS the most accurate one (it often is NOT when you translate fiction texts, but as Ercolano said, this is not a fiction text.
TTYS.
I did recognize something about the holy communion and some more church related stuff so that would explain the latin as latin was used in catholic churches until my early childhood.
OK, I am halfway through and can give you something to begin with and to quell your impatience. :)
These are indeed two reglementative documents. I suppose they are or previously were part of a bigger volume or collection. Also, this is not the original, but a copy. Both are letters or, respectively, writs (which were more or less the same at the time when coming in such a way and from such a person.
The person in question is King Friedrich of Prussia. He ruled 1701 - 1713, you can read up some stuff on him here.
So here is the first half of the text: [My own comments in brackets]
---------------------------------------
No. 78 - 81
No. 79. Military Reglementation of the Imperial Cabinet
April 29th, 1711
This can be found with signed attachments in the third part of the first department under no. 96.
No. 80. Rescript regarding the formula of administration of the Sacred Communion in the Reformed Church, dated Cologne, December 12th 1711
[Left Column:]
By the grace og God, Friderich, King of Prussia, margrave of Brandenburg, of the Holy Roman Empirearch-chamberlain and elector. [This is the consigner]
To our [must be pluralis majestatis] venerable noble bishop and beloved friend!
It has not only been disclosed, but also have some members of the local Reformed Church complained about it, that some of their preachers, while distributing bread and wine during the rite of the Holy Communion, used differente formalia [sic. He used Latin here himself, indicating that this is a fixed term. I believe it means the liturgy], which would disturb the devotions of many who are not used to them [meant are the formalia which are disturbing]. Therefore we order you in grace that you relay our reverence to our court preachers and tell them that in our court chapel and in the cathedral, during the sacred actu [sic. Latin again, means "acts"], they will kindly use the besidementioned formalia, and no others.
Friderich
To the Bishop of Bär
[Right Column:]
Formular [in this case meaning the liturgic rules that have to be kept]
which has to be used during the Sacrament of the Holy Supper of the Lord in our Protestant-Reformed Church:
When distributing the Lord's bread:
The bread that we break is the companionship of the body of Jesus Christ.
When distributing the Lord's cup:
The cup of grace, so that we give thanks, is the companionship of the blood of Jesus Christ, to the remission of our sins.
---------------------------------------
So what does it mean? Basically, Friedrich is writing to the Bishop, and say: "Hey, people complained that that you're messing up the Holy Supper. Tell your preachers to do it right.
And, to the right, is written down how they should do it.
Next part is following.
Oh, Ercolano asked why the strewn in Latin. Basically because these were fixed terms. The text is part of the CMM (Corpus Constitutionum Marchicarum), a collection of rules and reglementations, and those were the terms used.
Don't jurists use tons of Latin terms up to this very day? :)
You know what is funny?
The second text is quite hard, so I did some research.
And I found out that the oiginal can be found in the German State Library in Berlin and belongs to the Prussia Legislative Sources digitalized.
The funny thing about this is that a very good friend of mine works exactly there, at the State Library, and is responsible for interpreting those old prints and scripts.
So, if you need any further help with the text once I've translated it, let me know, I'll ask him.
OK, back to translating.
LadyMin said
used differente formalia
literally 'different formality', and like you said probably a commonplace fixed term to signify 'not the conventional and established procedure'. But could the recourse to the commonplace latin term be because there was no concise way to express the concept in common German?
I think it is rather funny in a way. Just 200 years into the Reformist confession we see it subject to the same attitudes that lead to the original cism from the catholic confession insofar as it shows:
a) Politics dictating to the church and,
b) A tendency to consider the conservation and celebration of the ritual as being the cornerstone of the church rather than the faith.
Then again, we don't know how the bishop replied, he might just have written a polite letter explaining what the Reformist church was all about and why the priest did not necessarily strictly adhere to the established ritual :D
Almost right. :)
It is law Latin, though, not church Latin. As I explain below, these are law texts, and they use law terms. They are ABOUT church matters, though, so you read right. First one is about the Communion, second one is about inheriting land from the Church, I think.
OK, this one is a real tough cookie. It's very specific law speech which would be difficult even in modern German. ;)
I managed the first column and will give it a break now because I'm tired and need a bed for today. I'll leave what I've got so far here, because I think the names you looked for are in the part I just did.
As already said above, this one is about "Huffen" (I never heard of this before, and googled it only in four very old texts, all of them around the same tima as yours (two letters of Martin Luther). It seems to me that a Huffe is a piece of land the priest of preacher inherits from the Church and cares for it much in a system like the previous knights did, with peasants taking care of the land for him. A sort (or part of the) feudal law.
Apparently, some person (R. von Trotten, I guess him to be a noble) makes claims against his preacher of Wiedenburg and Badingen. Thei argument is about "Huffe" vs. bona censitica, which is more of a fiefdom or feud.
System of feudal tenure is a real tough cookie, so even when translating, I don't really understand what this is about. Nevertheless, here goes what I've got:
-------------------------------------------
No. 81. Rescript how the argument about the priestly and parochial "huffen", if they are propriety of the priests or bona censitica, is to be solved.
Friderich, King of Prussia.
It is already known how We ordered to proceed concerning the argument arisen from the most humble introduction of the estates of the Kurmark and our local chamber of office, which is between the R. von Trotten and his preacher of Wiedenburg and Badingen, about the priest-huffen in Appellationis Instantia, and how We relayed this to our privy councils Hülsemann, Fuchs and Neuhausen. After those beforementioned have most humbly given us a full account, and after We found their most humble opinion founded in laws, we order in grace [the following]:
-------------------------------------------
OK, I'll tell you what he decrees tomorrow, ok? I want my bed for now. :) Only the right column of the lower Rescript is missing, you'll have it tomorrow.
Hope this helps already.
Ah dang, Lady beat me to it.
There was i time when i used to transcribe old books.
I'm a bit surprised that you speak german lady. :D
