Why, hello there. I am so happy to meet you!
Allow me to introduce myself. I am the new Worth1000. Is this your first time meeting the new me? We should get reacquainted then. So many things are different about me now. Come and learn more :).
I was just wondering Jax if it would be possible to have a small floating voting scale pop up when you enter the voting section of a contest. Kind of like the tool bar at the bottom of the page that we have now.
We would have the ability to close it(like the other bad) if you want but it would be nice to have the option of glancing down if you are not sure if you are voting correctly. Just a thought
How is it that these announcement threads turn into suggestion threads? This new system has been worked on extensively and thought about indepth. No where in the original post was advice requested.
My apologies to jax -- who was very gracious as usual in his reply -- for misinterpreting the advance/'sneak peek' nature of the post.
/me considers the thread locked
let me rephrase that, if this is an "explain the karma thread", and I was not accurate in stating that "tournaments and BOTS have their own karma", maybe someone higher up can elaborate. Because I assumed that they did.
I could have sworn I replied to this before. Weird...
Please understand that I am always open to suggestions and feedback from the community, but in thread announcements it might just add to the confusion over what is being implemented.
Announcement discussions like these can become chaotic enough and good suggestions can become lost in the haze. I would recommend that any suggestions addressing changes be posted in a new thread (one per change) so that people can readily discuss it on its merits.
Sorry my bad. I'll start a new thread. Sorry again.
I've been away for the site for a bit, and I've just noticed my karma in my profile - I know the karma was supposed to carry across, but did we lose our karma for the "arenas" we participate most in? I've lost all my karma for text/writing arenas which is odd since that's pretty much the only place I'm confident to vote in.
Did not seem to be worth a new thread so I'll ask here.
In the W2k you could see how many votes were cast in each scale. Do I remember this correctly. They don't call me Dorey for nothing.
Will there be something like this in the current worth1000?
I always found it very interesting to see the curve on my entrees.
JaxomLOTUS said
You can now receive up to 6 karma points per contest you vote fairly in provided you are using more of the voting scale. That makes it twice as easy to power up in each arena if you are voting fairly, and using more of the voting scale.
The new Karma system was announced about a week ago and I've been making a conscious effort to use more of the voting scale, but this has an odd side effect in the way I think about entries. I am trying to be more thoughtful of how much work went into some entries and realize yeah, that WAS a lot of work and it DOES deserve more than the skinflint 6 that so many great entries get. But...
There's two ends of the voting scale, and using MORE of the scale does mean being harsher on poor or borderline unacceptable entries and handing out more 3's and 2's. If we're supposed to vote fairly AND use more of the voting scale at the same time, then it is only fair to use more of the lower numbers as well.
Has anyone else been feeling this way, and is this a known or intended side effect of the new and improved Karma II system?
cmumiddle said
is this a known or intended side effect of the new and improved Karma II system?
Yes, it is expected there would be a much broader range of final scores - both low and high ends - if all voters used the scale as written.
If you mean you had been reluctant to use the lower part of the scale, I agree with you. I never thought it did much good to stamp a 2 or 3 on a poor entry. I always figured a 4 would say "could use an extra hour of work". Although sometimes someone makes no effort and deserved the 1-3 and I had no problem dishing that out.
I enjoy rewarding good work with high votes but found it hard to "discourage" (my thinking) someone with a really low vote. So, I guess I'll just have to fill out the lower scale too.
I also found many entries to be average. Not bad, not real good. With the new Karma system it seems that will be frowned upon as Karma humping. So, more spread out they will be.
cmumiddle said
I am trying to be more thoughtful of how much work went into some entries
As far as I know you should vote on the final result, not on assumptions about the work behind it. More work will be honored through a better final result.
Yes. I went back and printed off all the Arena FAQ's I vote in so I can refer to them again, and it has resulted in more low scores than I'm maybe used to handing out.
I suppose I wasn't comfortable really marking an entry WAY down in the past, if I'm being honest. I'm sticking with it now, though.
Also remember that the raw beginners on this site may benefit more from seeing their entries progress from 2 to 3 to 4 than from staying at 4 for months because they're not up to 5 yet and people are being easy on them.
I know folks get discouraged by seeing qualitatively better entries get the same old "C-" score. Their entries are getting better, but their early entries were voted high out of charity, and thus they can't see their improvement reflected in their scores.
Think Im a bit too nostalgic, but in the past
i saw great entries get 8, and i dont feel comfortable
giving 8+ on images i think it dont REALLY deserves
(according to my memory, and those great entries of the past).
I feel that great entries on past was actually worst
then average ones today, on new system, but I think, as
some of u said, that poor entries r beeing overrated.
Think instead of giving a 4 to poor entries we should give
3 or 2 and encourage its autors to improve it by showing
links to tutorials that can help his specific entries to
improve.
Again, sorry for my bad english.
Fanatic said
Also remember that the raw beginners on this site may benefit more from seeing their entries progress from 2 to 3 to 4 than from staying at 4 for months because they're not up to 5 yet and people are being easy on them.
That's a good point, thanks.
I know just what you mean. Sometimes I look at an image and think, "It would be good if only ...". Then I have to rethink it, realizing that the "if only" is not the final result.
I don't enjoy giving low scores, but if a beginner wants to play with the big boys in an advanced contest, then they have to be ready for stiffer competition. Here are the rules for an advanced contests: "NOTE: Quality will be strictly enforced in this contest. So please bring us your best and don't be offended if your picture is disqualified."
In a beginner contest an entry may be a 5. But since more is expected in an advanced contest, it might only score a 3.
Will the voting guide be updated to take into account this encouragement to use more of the voting scale?
as it stands...
1 and 2 are discouraged as so bad an entry should be flagged/removed for being too poor.
9 is "virtually perfect" which hinders 10 quite a bit.
which leaves 3-7 as the range for all but outstandingly great or bad entries.
It also describes 5 as "average" which to a lot of people will be interpreted as the standard of "most entries"... and therefore give most entries 5.
i'm not discounting that people do "karma hump", but the voting guide does lead to perfectly innocent and natural karma humping as it reads. I think its a great idea to encourage people to vote more broadly, but the guide is working against that as I read it. perhaps 1 and 2 shouldn't have the pressure of moderation, and start talking about a degree perfection at 10 rather than 9. i'm just saying this because i take following the guide very seriously, and as i interpret it (albeit also as perhaps someone who is quite critical judging by some peoples voting habits) i'm "humping" a lot of contests, and now a bit sad i've not been voting quite like it seems you'd like me to be voting. in fact until now i'd assumed jurors must have their own voting guide designed to counter what everyone else does according to the public guide. :S
dixieodoodles said
In a beginner contest an entry may be a 5. But since more is expected in an advanced contest, it might only score a 3.
You point at an interesting question because the voting scale is the same for beginner and advanced contests. According to the voting scale a 5 is "average, Not great, not bad" and the term "average" is also open to interpretation. Is "average" different for different contest levels?
As the scale is the same I've assumed that entries should be voted on regardless of whether it's a beginner or advanced. Correct me if I'm wrong, it would be good if one of the admins could clarify this.
I'd personally think they should be the same score regarless if it's beginner or advanced. You vote each image on it's own merit. Not 'oh this is only a 3 compared to these other advanced' or 'it's a 5 in comparison to these beginners' since you're not supposed to compare to other images. The voting scale is the same for both, so it should end up with the same score for both - right?
dixieodoodles said
In a beginner contest an entry may be a 5. But since more is expected in an advanced contest, it might only score a 3
Onepixel said
As the scale is the same I've assumed that entries should be voted on regardless of whether it's a beginner or advanced. Correct me if I'm wrong, it would be good if one of the admins could clarify this.
I've always applied the same scale to Beginner and Advanced contests. A 5 in Beginner is a 5 in Advanced too. Those new to Worth and our photo manipulation contests need to understand where their skills lie before they jump into the deep end. If new Worthians start in the Beginners contests and score 6-8s, then they are more than capable of playing with the big boys. If they're scoreing 1-4, probably not.
The beginner contests averages are generally lower than an advanced contest. The difference between Beginner and Advanced contests is that we do not disqualify for quality in Beginner. So potentially there are entries that deserve 1s and 2s. You are encouraged to offer some sort of advice or tip if you do score an entry that low. However, you do not need to flag them.
